Rick Hightower presents an argument to encourage sun to support groovy rather than ruby (“Quit pimple pimping ruby”:http://www.jroller.com/RickHigh/entry/thanks_zed_btw_syntax_matters)
bq. Can we just get some decent support for Groovy? No instead Sun invests in Ruby via JRuby. DOH! Groovy looks a lot like Java. It is much easier to get started with it. The syntax does not make developers want to hurl. Why is Sun investing so much money in JRuby?
The investment should be in Groovy. Developers who know Java can learn Groovy quickly and are more likely to do so if the tools support it. Ruby is a non-starter.
One of the arguments based on a chart similar (not the same) to the one below is :
bq. Here is another reason not to invest heavily in Ruby. For the color blind: RUBY COMES IN DEAD LAST!
Ruby comes in dead last. If there was going to be a revolution, it would have happened already. Ruby is a little long in the tooth to finish this poorly. Don’t you think?
| java, c#, php, pl/sql, ruby, python, c++, visual basic, groovy Job Trends | java jobs – c# jobs – php jobs – pl/sql jobs – ruby jobs – python jobs – c++ jobs – visual basic jobs – groovy jobs |
When I represent the chart in relative terms (ie. percentage growth from a common starting point) it seems suddenly obvious that both ruby and groovy have a sufficiently strong momentum. Here’s the modified chart based on a relative scale
| java, c#, php, pl/sql, ruby, python, c++, visual basic, groovy Job Trends | java jobs – c# jobs – php jobs – pl/sql jobs – ruby jobs – python jobs – c++ jobs – visual basic jobs – groovy jobs |
If one instead takes a look at the “TIOBE Programming Community Index”:http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm , Ruby shows up at the 11th Rank whereas Groovy still at 31st. Incidentally the top 10 languages trend shows up as follows
!http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/images/tpci_trends.png!
If I was Sun and had ample $$ to spare, I would attempt to support both, and if I had to choose, I would go for better java integration with Ruby using JRuby rather than focusing on Groovy.
(But then neither am I sun neither I have so many $$ to spare 
)
Related posts: (Automatically Generated)
Regarding Tiobe index, if you’re arguing relative growth you could also look at Groovy’s relative growth within this index. 6 months ago it was at 51st place, a year ago it was outside the top 100.
So “relatively” speaking 31st is pretty impressive
if I had to choose, I would go for better java integration with Ruby using JRuby rather than focusing on Groovy.
Why? Is Ruby really that much better than Groovy? You’d think they’d support Groovy more since there’s a JSR behind it and no JSR behind JRuby.
If I had to choose, I would go for better java integration with Groovy using rather than focusing on JRuby.
Then I would pick Python via Jython since is it a) more popular b) more mature.
Then I would pick Scala since it provides great langague feature that are not found anywhere else and it augments what Java bring to the table.
Then I would pick PHP since it is a) more popular b) people actually use it.
Then I would pick Ecmacscript 4 via the next Rhino since it is a) more popular b) people actually use it c) it has great langague features in a very commonly used syntax d) looks a lot closer to Java than JavaScript.
Then if I still had some money, I would donate it charity and leave Ruby out in the cold like the match stick girl.
Matt, Rick,
I like groovy as a language and imagine it to be quite helpful in a variety of activities to bring easy scripting to java. A good example is executing an inline groovy script through maven groovy plugin. (I would treat Rhino in a similar way).
It however seems that much of recent popularity of groovy is not because of its initial intentions (grails was nowhere on the radar then) but due to grails (This might be an interesting link : http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=groovy%2C+gra... ). Now while grails might be serving its own constituency quite adequately, ruby+rails also happen to serving their base quite well. Rails is a partially disruptive development but it has helped create a large number of ruby developers. If I want something rails like I would much rather go for ror than for grails.
Java and Ruby are distinctly different languages with very different developer productivity and performance profiles Groovy to me occupies the intermediate territory between java and ruby, and given a much wider share (both in terms of momentum and actual projects / developers) of both ruby and rails, I think the software community will be served much better (Ruby not being a JSR notwithstanding), if java and ruby were made more interoperable (calling java routines from ruby methods or calling a ruby library from a J2EE app). That way I would use ruby if I wanted a really concise and powerful metaprogramming language with a framework on steroids, and Java if I wanted the entire industrial strength infrastructure that backs it up. Unless I find a reason to change my mind, I would still use groovy and js (rhino) to script in and around java for specific tooling or custom scripting – not yet to write full blown applications with.
Disclosure: I earn my bread using Java – not with ruby or groovy. – as yet I am playing around with them.
If I had to choose, I would go for better java integration with Groovy using rather than focusing on JRuby.
Then I would pick Python via Jython since is it a) more popular b) more mature.
Then I would pick Scala since it provides great langague feature that are not found anywhere else and it augments what Java bring to the table.
Then I would pick PHP since it is a) more popular b) people actually use it.
Then I would pick Ecmacscript 4 via the next Rhino since it is a) more popular b) people actually use it c) it has great langague features in a very commonly used syntax d) looks a lot closer to Java than JavaScript.
Then if I still had some money, I would donate it charity and leave Ruby out in the cold like the match stick girl.
Matt, Rick,
I like groovy as a language and imagine it to be quite helpful in a variety of activities to bring easy scripting to java. A good example is executing an inline groovy script through maven groovy plugin. (I would treat Rhino in a similar way).
It however seems that much of recent popularity of groovy is not because of its initial intentions (grails was nowhere on the radar then) but due to grails (This might be an interesting link : http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=groovy%2C+grails&relative=1 ). Now while grails might be serving its own constituency quite adequately, ruby+rails also happen to serving their base quite well. Rails is a partially disruptive development but it has helped create a large number of ruby developers. If I want something rails like I would much rather go for ror than for grails.
Java and Ruby are distinctly different languages with very different developer productivity and performance profiles Groovy to me occupies the intermediate territory between java and ruby, and given a much wider share (both in terms of momentum and actual projects / developers) of both ruby and rails, I think the software community will be served much better (Ruby not being a JSR notwithstanding), if java and ruby were made more interoperable (calling java routines from ruby methods or calling a ruby library from a J2EE app). That way I would use ruby if I wanted a really concise and powerful metaprogramming language with a framework on steroids, and Java if I wanted the entire industrial strength infrastructure that backs it up. Unless I find a reason to change my mind, I would still use groovy and js (rhino) to script in and around java for specific tooling or custom scripting – not yet to write full blown applications with.
Disclosure: I earn my bread using Java – not with ruby or groovy. – as yet I am playing around with them.
Here is why I would NOT choose JRuby. It will always be chasing its cousin (regular) Ruby. No matter how fast they program it will always lag. Groovy is its own language and isn’t beholden to any cousins. That is why I would use Groovy and why I would support Groovy.
“For the record, I never said anything bad about Ruby….”
“Then if I still had some money, I would donate it charity and leave Ruby out in the cold like the match stick girl.”
Wow! Rick you’re coming across as being really weird, pyschocotic almost. Why the hatred for Ruby? It’s just another language dude! Get counseling or something.
I’d choose groovy. It’s a JSR, the syntax is Java like, it feels like part of Java, etc. It doesn’t feel like a whole new language to me. Instead it feels like an extension or part of Java. For example, when writing web apps in Struts 2 or JSF (via Seam, or JSF 2.0) it is possible to use Groovy to write the code behind the web app. This can make web development faster.
Ruby on the other hand is a whole separate language with a syntax that keeps me from even considering it. The rudeness of the Ruby community is also terrible and I do not want to support their Java bashing cause.
I love Java. Why should I even care about Ruby when I can continue to use the language and frameworks I love, backed with a Java like JSR scripting language.
@Walter Robbins
Thanks for your concern for my welfare. I am not alone. I am sick of the last 3 years of the “Ruby Rulez, Java sucks crowd”. Ruby/Rails has always been overhyped by pyschocotic devotees. This is just a little backlash.
Groovy seems to make more sense for the Java space. That’s all.
IMHO, I think Sun may be making a wise move – integrating JRuby means bringing more Ruby developers to the JVM and hence a chance for them to sell more hardware/consultancy (a possible reason behind the MySQL purchase perhaps?).
Groovy is a fantastic language, but its main audience is Java developers, and with Ruby so much in the headlines at the moment, I guess Sun is quite keen to grab as many as they can…
My £0.02
Should VB.net be like C# ?
Should IronPython be like C# ?
I don't like Java Language but I like Java VM, is there some alternative?
IMHO, I think Sun may be making a wise move – integrating JRuby means bringing more Ruby developers to the JVM and hence a chance for them to sell more hardware/consultancy (a possible reason behind the MySQL purchase perhaps?).
Groovy is a fantastic language, but its main audience is Java developers, and with Ruby so much in the headlines at the moment, I guess Sun is quite keen to grab as many as they can…
My £0.02
Should VB.net be like C# ?
Should IronPython be like C# ?
I don’t like Java Language but I like Java VM, is there some alternative?